Comments on: Psychology of the Grognard http://www.d20source.com/2009/06/psychology-of-the-grognard A must-read Dungeons & Dragons blog for dungeon masters, D&D players and game designers. Fri, 12 Mar 2010 02:14:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: AWizardInDallas http://www.d20source.com/2009/06/psychology-of-the-grognard/comment-page-1#comment-71183 AWizardInDallas Tue, 07 Jul 2009 04:32:41 +0000 http://www.d20source.com/?p=1013#comment-71183 It must be some sort of record to both pretend to know anything about actual psychology and be so condescending at the same time. It's also refreshing to see new ways of stereotyping and pigeonholing so tidily invented and applied so succinctly to an actually diverse (albeit loose) community. The real trend is entirely societal and applies to just about anything new. People have become so increasingly crow-like in their obsessive want to collect 'shiny things.' It just doesn't matter what it is... operating systems, cars, phones, software, hardware, video games, big screen televisions... everyone's gotta have the newer, bigger, flashier thing. Sorry to say it but the real issue is that attention spans have grown increasingly shorter... it's now all about instant gratification... every moment must be filled with closer to video game speed and action or younger players just grow bored. So game 'designers' 'simplify' instead of refine which is pretty much what people do with each new iteration of a thing. In large part, the trend in our society is to throw out the recipe with the food, strip out the seasoning and in so doing strip out the original flavor so badly that the dish is completely unrecognizable to the discerning pallet. Oh, and let's not forget to alienate diners by telling them that they're the problem when they decide not to taste and go to other restaurants just because the new cookery smells foul. Where does that leave 'psychology'? See the marketing department. It must be some sort of record to both pretend to know anything about actual psychology and be so condescending at the same time. It’s also refreshing to see new ways of stereotyping and pigeonholing so tidily invented and applied so succinctly to an actually diverse (albeit loose) community. The real trend is entirely societal and applies to just about anything new. People have become so increasingly crow-like in their obsessive want to collect ’shiny things.’ It just doesn’t matter what it is… operating systems, cars, phones, software, hardware, video games, big screen televisions… everyone’s gotta have the newer, bigger, flashier thing. Sorry to say it but the real issue is that attention spans have grown increasingly shorter… it’s now all about instant gratification… every moment must be filled with closer to video game speed and action or younger players just grow bored. So game ‘designers’ ’simplify’ instead of refine which is pretty much what people do with each new iteration of a thing. In large part, the trend in our society is to throw out the recipe with the food, strip out the seasoning and in so doing strip out the original flavor so badly that the dish is completely unrecognizable to the discerning pallet. Oh, and let’s not forget to alienate diners by telling them that they’re the problem when they decide not to taste and go to other restaurants just because the new cookery smells foul. Where does that leave ‘psychology’? See the marketing department.

]]> By: PlanetNiles http://www.d20source.com/2009/06/psychology-of-the-grognard/comment-page-1#comment-71149 PlanetNiles Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:53:15 +0000 http://www.d20source.com/?p=1013#comment-71149 I'm not a Grognard; this is the first time I've spoken about why I dislike 4Ed outside my gaming group. To be blunt I hate it. It isn't D&D, its an MMO-on-paper and not a particularly good one. I'll try and explain why point for point. 1. 4Ed restricts narrative by defining party roles too tightly. When you go through a 'party' of ten characters and you can't recreate *any* under the new ruleset then there is a problem. 2. In theory the meat and bones of any RPG is the setting not the system. I literally spent many hundreds of UKP on 2Ed materials. I loved 2Ed and still fondly recall the last campaign I ran with it. However when 3Ed came out I embraced it like a lost brother and soon most of my 2Ed books were consigned to storage. My campaign settings survived though and have grown and diversified even across the rule change. Changing the ruleset didn't pose a problem, until 4Ed came along and then it was like hitting a brick wall. Please understand I have run and played games using hybrid rulesets from apparently imcompatible systems in dramatically distorted settings without problems yet 4Ed created a problem that was insurmountable for my friends and I. I could never understand people who refused to play 3Ed, it felt like such a streamlined and coherent system compared to 2Ed. I even had someone tell me that Kenzer&Co's HackMaster was "what 3rd Ed should have been". I smiled and replied that HackMaster was a huge amount of fun and a massive nostalgia-hit but not a patch on the d20 system... 3. I was a "Fouron" that is to say someone who, despite the warnings of friends and conventional wisdom, allowed themselves to get excited by the approach of 4Ed. I mean so much had been learnt and developed since 3.0 and the step from 2.5 to 3.0 had been so smooth I couldn't help myself. I bought the preview books and dissected them for clues as to what to expect. I began designing a new setting specifically preparing what was promised. I signed up to Gleemax, read the blogs, preordered every book... I had no pessimism. I knew I should, but ghoddamn it each new system, each new setting, each new character and each new session brought back a sliver of that initial hit of wonderment. How could 4Ed go wrong? 4. Yeah I love reminiscing about bygone games. I remember my first session of 3.0, I recall the last of 2Ed, heck I loved the session on Saturday; the druid nearly got half the party wiped out, forgetting the important of scouting was to report back to the party before attacking the enemy... Yeah I love that and I look forward to the nostalgia we create next session too. Who cares if the new system can't recreate the adventures of yesterday? I'm here for the adventures of today and tomorrow! 5. So yeah I had all these expectations, all these promises made by WotC, well its staff, and then the books arrived and my hopes were dashed. It wasn't what was promised, it was a pale imitation of what had promised. Like the MMO's it so proudly imitates barely half the promised features had been implemented on release the rest were 'promised' for future updates. Sorry no. If I wanted to play an MMO I'd go online and do it. It felt like WotC were extracting the urine, like they had taken all the good stuff from 3Ed and thrown it away to see if anyone noticed. Yeah it was a workable system, yes it had some high points, yes it looked fun but ghoddamnit it wasn't D&D. I don't know what it was but despite the flashy logo it wasn't D&D. That's what most of the other 'Grognards' tell me "it isn't D&D". I don't call that a whine, I call that a consensus. Someone wake me up when 5th Ed is announced, but I won't expect anything good to come out of it... I’m not a Grognard; this is the first time I’ve spoken about why I dislike 4Ed outside my gaming group. To be blunt I hate it. It isn’t D&D, its an MMO-on-paper and not a particularly good one. I’ll try and explain why point for point.

1. 4Ed restricts narrative by defining party roles too tightly. When you go through a ‘party’ of ten characters and you can’t recreate *any* under the new ruleset then there is a problem.

2. In theory the meat and bones of any RPG is the setting not the system. I literally spent many hundreds of UKP on 2Ed materials. I loved 2Ed and still fondly recall the last campaign I ran with it. However when 3Ed came out I embraced it like a lost brother and soon most of my 2Ed books were consigned to storage. My campaign settings survived though and have grown and diversified even across the rule change. Changing the ruleset didn’t pose a problem, until 4Ed came along and then it was like hitting a brick wall. Please understand I have run and played games using hybrid rulesets from apparently imcompatible systems in dramatically distorted settings without problems yet 4Ed created a problem that was insurmountable for my friends and I. I could never understand people who refused to play 3Ed, it felt like such a streamlined and coherent system compared to 2Ed. I even had someone tell me that Kenzer&Co’s HackMaster was “what 3rd Ed should have been”. I smiled and replied that HackMaster was a huge amount of fun and a massive nostalgia-hit but not a patch on the d20 system…

3. I was a “Fouron” that is to say someone who, despite the warnings of friends and conventional wisdom, allowed themselves to get excited by the approach of 4Ed. I mean so much had been learnt and developed since 3.0 and the step from 2.5 to 3.0 had been so smooth I couldn’t help myself. I bought the preview books and dissected them for clues as to what to expect. I began designing a new setting specifically preparing what was promised. I signed up to Gleemax, read the blogs, preordered every book… I had no pessimism. I knew I should, but ghoddamn it each new system, each new setting, each new character and each new session brought back a sliver of that initial hit of wonderment. How could 4Ed go wrong?

4. Yeah I love reminiscing about bygone games. I remember my first session of 3.0, I recall the last of 2Ed, heck I loved the session on Saturday; the druid nearly got half the party wiped out, forgetting the important of scouting was to report back to the party before attacking the enemy… Yeah I love that and I look forward to the nostalgia we create next session too. Who cares if the new system can’t recreate the adventures of yesterday? I’m here for the adventures of today and tomorrow!

5. So yeah I had all these expectations, all these promises made by WotC, well its staff, and then the books arrived and my hopes were dashed. It wasn’t what was promised, it was a pale imitation of what had promised. Like the MMO’s it so proudly imitates barely half the promised features had been implemented on release the rest were ‘promised’ for future updates. Sorry no. If I wanted to play an MMO I’d go online and do it. It felt like WotC were extracting the urine, like they had taken all the good stuff from 3Ed and thrown it away to see if anyone noticed. Yeah it was a workable system, yes it had some high points, yes it looked fun but ghoddamnit it wasn’t D&D. I don’t know what it was but despite the flashy logo it wasn’t D&D.

That’s what most of the other ‘Grognards’ tell me “it isn’t D&D”. I don’t call that a whine, I call that a consensus. Someone wake me up when 5th Ed is announced, but I won’t expect anything good to come out of it…

]]> By: Doc Ryder http://www.d20source.com/2009/06/psychology-of-the-grognard/comment-page-1#comment-71005 Doc Ryder Fri, 03 Jul 2009 01:13:41 +0000 http://www.d20source.com/?p=1013#comment-71005 Does anyone else notice that the majority of the comments are those who don't like 4e justifying their dislike of the new system and getting defensive over one man's attempt to figure out why? I can't comprehend why some players keep trying to justify why they think 4e is bad, and going on and on about it. Why do you these people feel the ned to talk down 4e, rather than just walk away? Play what you like, and let me do and discuss what I like, please, and I'll give you the same respect. Does anyone else notice that the majority of the comments are those who don’t like 4e justifying their dislike of the new system and getting defensive over one man’s attempt to figure out why?

I can’t comprehend why some players keep trying to justify why they think 4e is bad, and going on and on about it. Why do you these people feel the ned to talk down 4e, rather than just walk away? Play what you like, and let me do and discuss what I like, please, and I’ll give you the same respect.

]]> By: Psychology of the Grognard - Geeky Domains http://www.d20source.com/2009/06/psychology-of-the-grognard/comment-page-1#comment-70996 Psychology of the Grognard - Geeky Domains Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:57:52 +0000 http://www.d20source.com/?p=1013#comment-70996 [...] Tyson on Jul.02, 2009, under Games I found this great post at Jonathan Drain’s D20 Source discussing different reasons for why gamers don’t upgrade to different rule [...] [...] Tyson on Jul.02, 2009, under Games I found this great post at Jonathan Drain’s D20 Source discussing different reasons for why gamers don’t upgrade to different rule [...]

]]> By: JimTOdd http://www.d20source.com/2009/06/psychology-of-the-grognard/comment-page-1#comment-70939 JimTOdd Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:11:07 +0000 http://www.d20source.com/?p=1013#comment-70939 I read this after I read the blog about edition wars and how 3.5 fans won't just "drop it" in threads. How is hopping up and presuming to psychoanalyze a huge number of people going to lead to peace and understanding? I guess I should be happy you allowed for the potential for option 5...but why if you're trying to move past the animosity would you even bring up 'grognards', slap them with a name that has negative connotations, and provide amateur psychoanalysis? I read this after I read the blog about edition wars and how 3.5 fans won’t just “drop it” in threads. How is hopping up and presuming to psychoanalyze a huge number of people going to lead to peace and understanding? I guess I should be happy you allowed for the potential for option 5…but why if you’re trying to move past the animosity would you even bring up ‘grognards’, slap them with a name that has negative connotations, and provide amateur psychoanalysis?

]]> By: Trashcan http://www.d20source.com/2009/06/psychology-of-the-grognard/comment-page-1#comment-70884 Trashcan Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:26:25 +0000 http://www.d20source.com/?p=1013#comment-70884 God, talk about lame and cheap psihology. What on EARTH are you writing about? We can't dislike the new editions? *Because we need realism in our imaginary world? *Or because we know every single rule in the old ones? *Or because we spent too much money on the old ones? *Or we just plain hate it. Horrible. God, talk about lame and cheap psihology. What on EARTH are you writing about?

We can’t dislike the new editions?
*Because we need realism in our imaginary world?
*Or because we know every single rule in the old ones?
*Or because we spent too much money on the old ones?
*Or we just plain hate it.

Horrible.

]]> By: Mad MAx Jr http://www.d20source.com/2009/06/psychology-of-the-grognard/comment-page-1#comment-70871 Mad MAx Jr Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:58:36 +0000 http://www.d20source.com/?p=1013#comment-70871 Once I started looking at 3.5 and 4E as two completely separate games I had an easier time accepting it. Now if WOTC would only get on the ball about the features they promised around 4E launch... Once I started looking at 3.5 and 4E as two completely separate games I had an easier time accepting it. Now if WOTC would only get on the ball about the features they promised around 4E launch…

]]> By: wickedmurph http://www.d20source.com/2009/06/psychology-of-the-grognard/comment-page-1#comment-70807 wickedmurph Mon, 29 Jun 2009 18:05:26 +0000 http://www.d20source.com/?p=1013#comment-70807 S'funny, I have a beard, and have been playing D&D and boardgames for more than 20 years, but I'm not a Grognard. The term has come, to me, to indicate a basically conservative outlook that prefers things to not change. Reason 1, 2 and 5 don't have much to do with being a Grognard, they're just ways that people evaluate how they want to spend their free time, and 5 is simply subjective - depending totally on the preferences of the individual. I'm a busy guy, with a job and kids and I'm a volunteer firefighter. Plus, I like a high-action game. I never played 3e or 3.5 because of reason 5. So for me 4e is the way to go - quick prep, lots of action, and I didn't have any sunk cost, fallacious or otherwise. I used to think Grognard mean "grumbly expert". Too bad blogging and the edition wars have changed the meaning to "someone I'm sick of hearing from". S’funny, I have a beard, and have been playing D&D and boardgames for more than 20 years, but I’m not a Grognard. The term has come, to me, to indicate a basically conservative outlook that prefers things to not change. Reason 1, 2 and 5 don’t have much to do with being a Grognard, they’re just ways that people evaluate how they want to spend their free time, and 5 is simply subjective – depending totally on the preferences of the individual.

I’m a busy guy, with a job and kids and I’m a volunteer firefighter. Plus, I like a high-action game. I never played 3e or 3.5 because of reason 5. So for me 4e is the way to go – quick prep, lots of action, and I didn’t have any sunk cost, fallacious or otherwise.

I used to think Grognard mean “grumbly expert”. Too bad blogging and the edition wars have changed the meaning to “someone I’m sick of hearing from”.

]]> By: Tetsubo http://www.d20source.com/2009/06/psychology-of-the-grognard/comment-page-1#comment-70801 Tetsubo Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:24:22 +0000 http://www.d20source.com/?p=1013#comment-70801 I'm a 3.5 loyalist. I don't consider 3.5 'outdated' in any manner. I really do think it is the best version of the game. That's my opinion, it can't be wrong. I am however a grognard. Because sadly I do want WotC to fail miserably with 4E. I'm not proud of this and I hope to eventually move past it. But for the moment, in my view, WotC has done a massive disservice to D&D and the hobby in general. I have also decided that I can't in good faith buy any new Star Wars SAGA books either. I simply can not support WotC in any way. I’m a 3.5 loyalist. I don’t consider 3.5 ‘outdated’ in any manner. I really do think it is the best version of the game. That’s my opinion, it can’t be wrong.

I am however a grognard. Because sadly I do want WotC to fail miserably with 4E. I’m not proud of this and I hope to eventually move past it. But for the moment, in my view, WotC has done a massive disservice to D&D and the hobby in general.

I have also decided that I can’t in good faith buy any new Star Wars SAGA books either. I simply can not support WotC in any way.

]]> By: The Gherkin Patch » Archive du blog » The Sunk Cost Fallacy Fallacy http://www.d20source.com/2009/06/psychology-of-the-grognard/comment-page-1#comment-70800 The Gherkin Patch » Archive du blog » The Sunk Cost Fallacy Fallacy Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:38:45 +0000 http://www.d20source.com/?p=1013#comment-70800 [...] (friendly! ) response to Psychology of the Grognard by Jonathan Drain at D20 [...] [...] (friendly! ) response to Psychology of the Grognard by Jonathan Drain at D20 [...]

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