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	<title>Comments on: Player&#8217;s Guide to D&amp;D 4th Edition (For 3E Players)</title>
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	<link>http://www.d20source.com/2009/05/players-guide-to-dd-4th-edition-for-3e-players</link>
	<description>A must-read Dungeons &#38; Dragons blog for dungeon masters, D&#38;D players and game designers.</description>
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		<title>By: Roc</title>
		<link>http://www.d20source.com/2009/05/players-guide-to-dd-4th-edition-for-3e-players/comment-page-1#comment-89247</link>
		<dc:creator>Roc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d20source.com/?p=935#comment-89247</guid>
		<description>DR, your comments show me you have either not read 4th Edition yet or do not understand it.

Ranger only for ranged combat? Which version are you reading. Rangers have a few specializations they can have... ranged combat is one. Dual melee weapon combat is another. Beast master is another where they have a creature sidekick (i.e. think of Drizzt), and a few more.

And from a 1st or 2nd edition player, I might slightly see the complaint about miniatures. Although most of us all used them back then too. (Otherwise how do you know ranged and area affects?) But for 3rd edition, the miniatures were absolutely necessary. You had attacks of opportunity, bull rushing, etc. that all required miniatures. 4th edition is no different from 3rd in this way.

I am admittedly of the other extreme though...I loved 1st and 2nd edition, played 3rd edition during the entire release, but hated it the entire time. 3rd edition just didn&#039;t have any direction or consistency and didn&#039;t know what it wanted to do (just the release of a 3.5 version shows that...this is not a computer program!) But 4th edition is light years ahead in improving the game over 3rd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DR, your comments show me you have either not read 4th Edition yet or do not understand it.</p>
<p>Ranger only for ranged combat? Which version are you reading. Rangers have a few specializations they can have&#8230; ranged combat is one. Dual melee weapon combat is another. Beast master is another where they have a creature sidekick (i.e. think of Drizzt), and a few more.</p>
<p>And from a 1st or 2nd edition player, I might slightly see the complaint about miniatures. Although most of us all used them back then too. (Otherwise how do you know ranged and area affects?) But for 3rd edition, the miniatures were absolutely necessary. You had attacks of opportunity, bull rushing, etc. that all required miniatures. 4th edition is no different from 3rd in this way.</p>
<p>I am admittedly of the other extreme though&#8230;I loved 1st and 2nd edition, played 3rd edition during the entire release, but hated it the entire time. 3rd edition just didn&#8217;t have any direction or consistency and didn&#8217;t know what it wanted to do (just the release of a 3.5 version shows that&#8230;this is not a computer program!) But 4th edition is light years ahead in improving the game over 3rd.</p>
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		<title>By: DR</title>
		<link>http://www.d20source.com/2009/05/players-guide-to-dd-4th-edition-for-3e-players/comment-page-1#comment-87063</link>
		<dc:creator>DR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d20source.com/?p=935#comment-87063</guid>
		<description>Okay... simplifications:

Rangers - only good a ranged attacks now... sorry that was never what a &quot;Ranger&quot; meant, period.  To be a Ranger, one &quot;ranged&quot; across the open wilderness.  Like a gillie, or games warden, but not tied to a laird or lord.  A ranger is a &quot;mountain man&quot; a trapper, a hunter, who can handle both blade and bow, because living in the wild means that sometimes things will get the drop on you and you better be able to take it down in close combat.  
Limits to &quot;powers&quot; - for game &quot;balance&quot; it plays too much with my &quot;suspension of disbelief&quot; as having taken various self-defense classes in real life - I know that just because I failed to perform a maneuver once on an opponent, does not mean I will never get the opportunity again, in the same  fight or even the same day.  This is a defect that carried over from 3.x and carried over into 4th.  
This is not to say that everything is bad... I like the elimination of &quot;metamagic&quot; feats... those were just totally stupid, but then again I think there is once again a problem with magic... While getting rid of the &quot;Vancian System&quot; is fine and an admirable endeavor it suffers once again from the artificial limitations used in the &quot;powers&quot; in general.  Something that hampers the &quot;suspension of disbelief.&quot;
Use of miniatures - well having been introduced to the use of minis in my days 2nd Edition and Ravenloft, I like minis.  What I do not like is the overblown chess-like game that it seems to have become.  If I wanted to play Chess with a d20, those rules were out YEARS ago, and are so much simpler to boot!  
What many people seem to forget in design is that limits for &quot;playability&quot; are really artificial, because what the PCs can do, the NPCs can do too, and if need be the NPCs can do it better to boot!
I see myself potentially incorporating some elements of 4ed into my game or next game but to adopt the whole system?  No.  But I thank you John for the primer... something much needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay&#8230; simplifications:</p>
<p>Rangers &#8211; only good a ranged attacks now&#8230; sorry that was never what a &#8220;Ranger&#8221; meant, period.  To be a Ranger, one &#8220;ranged&#8221; across the open wilderness.  Like a gillie, or games warden, but not tied to a laird or lord.  A ranger is a &#8220;mountain man&#8221; a trapper, a hunter, who can handle both blade and bow, because living in the wild means that sometimes things will get the drop on you and you better be able to take it down in close combat.<br />
Limits to &#8220;powers&#8221; &#8211; for game &#8220;balance&#8221; it plays too much with my &#8220;suspension of disbelief&#8221; as having taken various self-defense classes in real life &#8211; I know that just because I failed to perform a maneuver once on an opponent, does not mean I will never get the opportunity again, in the same  fight or even the same day.  This is a defect that carried over from 3.x and carried over into 4th.<br />
This is not to say that everything is bad&#8230; I like the elimination of &#8220;metamagic&#8221; feats&#8230; those were just totally stupid, but then again I think there is once again a problem with magic&#8230; While getting rid of the &#8220;Vancian System&#8221; is fine and an admirable endeavor it suffers once again from the artificial limitations used in the &#8220;powers&#8221; in general.  Something that hampers the &#8220;suspension of disbelief.&#8221;<br />
Use of miniatures &#8211; well having been introduced to the use of minis in my days 2nd Edition and Ravenloft, I like minis.  What I do not like is the overblown chess-like game that it seems to have become.  If I wanted to play Chess with a d20, those rules were out YEARS ago, and are so much simpler to boot!<br />
What many people seem to forget in design is that limits for &#8220;playability&#8221; are really artificial, because what the PCs can do, the NPCs can do too, and if need be the NPCs can do it better to boot!<br />
I see myself potentially incorporating some elements of 4ed into my game or next game but to adopt the whole system?  No.  But I thank you John for the primer&#8230; something much needed.</p>
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		<title>By: Drake Saber</title>
		<link>http://www.d20source.com/2009/05/players-guide-to-dd-4th-edition-for-3e-players/comment-page-1#comment-84655</link>
		<dc:creator>Drake Saber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 04:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d20source.com/?p=935#comment-84655</guid>
		<description>Well, the 27 feb, 10, was my 1st actual encounter w/ 4e. Personally, I like it. It&#039;s more like a RL videogame. As far as those complaining &#039;4e lacks -&#039;, think of this- You can ALWAYS take 3e stuff, &amp; tweak its ideas, into 4e. &amp; those that play the whitewolf system, will adjust easier too, cuz, again, imo, 4e is simular in nature (skill use, etc).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the 27 feb, 10, was my 1st actual encounter w/ 4e. Personally, I like it. It&#8217;s more like a RL videogame. As far as those complaining &#8216;4e lacks -&#8217;, think of this- You can ALWAYS take 3e stuff, &amp; tweak its ideas, into 4e. &amp; those that play the whitewolf system, will adjust easier too, cuz, again, imo, 4e is simular in nature (skill use, etc).</p>
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		<title>By: Emanuel</title>
		<link>http://www.d20source.com/2009/05/players-guide-to-dd-4th-edition-for-3e-players/comment-page-1#comment-83923</link>
		<dc:creator>Emanuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d20source.com/?p=935#comment-83923</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m been playing 3.5 and Dming for alittle while, My first tabletop experience was actually Two World tabletop book that came with the special edition of the xbox game&lt; the similairies between that simple, one tiny book is strikeing, I hate the idea of 4e, it hurts to to look at it,That said i am goin to grit my teeth and try it..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m been playing 3.5 and Dming for alittle while, My first tabletop experience was actually Two World tabletop book that came with the special edition of the xbox game&lt; the similairies between that simple, one tiny book is strikeing, I hate the idea of 4e, it hurts to to look at it,That said i am goin to grit my teeth and try it..</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.d20source.com/2009/05/players-guide-to-dd-4th-edition-for-3e-players/comment-page-1#comment-83919</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d20source.com/?p=935#comment-83919</guid>
		<description>I read all the comments.  I will say this:  If your 4e game has &quot;no flavor,&quot; it&#039;s because you and your DM have &quot;no creativity.&quot;  4e simply makes dungeon crawling more fun, with tactical movement features and at-will powers.  As with any version of DnD...it all comes down to the DM and the players.  Creative players can invent all kinds of things to do, and the DM rolls with it...for example, your warlock might use a feat and encounter power to Intimidate a bloodied orc into dropping his weapons and surrendering, and make a 2nd intimidate check to get the orc to swear allegiance to him.  If the DM rolls with it (and your dice roll with you), now your warlock has an orc lackey that follows him into battle and does his bidding.  It&#039;s like...roleplay and flavor!

The best thing about 4e in my experience is how easy it is to get new players into it.  We&#039;ve got 3 novices in my group, and they&#039;re taking right to it.  Somehow, I don&#039;t think the woman playing the wizard would be having much fun if she could only cast Magic Missile 3 times before running in terror.  The at-will power/exploit idea was brilliant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read all the comments.  I will say this:  If your 4e game has &#8220;no flavor,&#8221; it&#8217;s because you and your DM have &#8220;no creativity.&#8221;  4e simply makes dungeon crawling more fun, with tactical movement features and at-will powers.  As with any version of DnD&#8230;it all comes down to the DM and the players.  Creative players can invent all kinds of things to do, and the DM rolls with it&#8230;for example, your warlock might use a feat and encounter power to Intimidate a bloodied orc into dropping his weapons and surrendering, and make a 2nd intimidate check to get the orc to swear allegiance to him.  If the DM rolls with it (and your dice roll with you), now your warlock has an orc lackey that follows him into battle and does his bidding.  It&#8217;s like&#8230;roleplay and flavor!</p>
<p>The best thing about 4e in my experience is how easy it is to get new players into it.  We&#8217;ve got 3 novices in my group, and they&#8217;re taking right to it.  Somehow, I don&#8217;t think the woman playing the wizard would be having much fun if she could only cast Magic Missile 3 times before running in terror.  The at-will power/exploit idea was brilliant.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.d20source.com/2009/05/players-guide-to-dd-4th-edition-for-3e-players/comment-page-1#comment-83913</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d20source.com/?p=935#comment-83913</guid>
		<description>Ps. Pathfinder is awesome if u wanna stick with 3e</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ps. Pathfinder is awesome if u wanna stick with 3e</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.d20source.com/2009/05/players-guide-to-dd-4th-edition-for-3e-players/comment-page-1#comment-83912</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d20source.com/?p=935#comment-83912</guid>
		<description>Also, 3rd edition is now more awesome with all the open source info, so there&#039;s no real reason to quit playing 3e unless you want to. I&#039;ll always love 3e and my group will probably continue playing 3e campaigns in addition to our 4e.  Acting like there is no choice in the matter is silly. There is more than enough 3e materials out there to make just about anything. And remember the books are guidelines, not rules. They can&#039;t tell you how to run your group</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, 3rd edition is now more awesome with all the open source info, so there&#8217;s no real reason to quit playing 3e unless you want to. I&#8217;ll always love 3e and my group will probably continue playing 3e campaigns in addition to our 4e.  Acting like there is no choice in the matter is silly. There is more than enough 3e materials out there to make just about anything. And remember the books are guidelines, not rules. They can&#8217;t tell you how to run your group</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.d20source.com/2009/05/players-guide-to-dd-4th-edition-for-3e-players/comment-page-1#comment-83911</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d20source.com/?p=935#comment-83911</guid>
		<description>I was very skeptical of 4th edition and didn&#039;t really touch it till a few weeks ago. However, I like the balance that 4tg edition brings to the table. For instance as a lvl 1 wizard, in 3rd edition you shot off 3 spells then had to run away crying or shoot a crossbow (badly) from the back. The addition of at will encounter and daily powers allows for wizards etc to actually contribute to the party even at lower levels. And as far as roleplaying is concerned I hear a lot of people talk smack on 4e but I personally don&#039;t feel as that the books should create the stories and depth for you. Dnd has always been to me just a set of mechanics to flesh out a world of your on creation and characters as unique as the players themselves. Could they expand more on roleplay?  Probably.  But dms and players should be upping their game and doing this on their own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was very skeptical of 4th edition and didn&#8217;t really touch it till a few weeks ago. However, I like the balance that 4tg edition brings to the table. For instance as a lvl 1 wizard, in 3rd edition you shot off 3 spells then had to run away crying or shoot a crossbow (badly) from the back. The addition of at will encounter and daily powers allows for wizards etc to actually contribute to the party even at lower levels. And as far as roleplaying is concerned I hear a lot of people talk smack on 4e but I personally don&#8217;t feel as that the books should create the stories and depth for you. Dnd has always been to me just a set of mechanics to flesh out a world of your on creation and characters as unique as the players themselves. Could they expand more on roleplay?  Probably.  But dms and players should be upping their game and doing this on their own.</p>
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		<title>By: Wes</title>
		<link>http://www.d20source.com/2009/05/players-guide-to-dd-4th-edition-for-3e-players/comment-page-1#comment-83159</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 06:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d20source.com/?p=935#comment-83159</guid>
		<description>I began playing back in &#039;77 with 1st ED.  Continued through High School and College with 2nd ED and AD&amp;D.  Then moved away, got married, had kids, and nearly forgot all about D&amp;D.
We got back into it about 4 years ago when we started having &quot;reunions&quot; with our old gaming group.  We also started a group here at home and decided to jump into 3.5.  After a short learning period, we decided that we loved the changes as they seemed to make the game simpler and gave more room for the roleplaying aspect.  We spent a year and a fair amount of money putting together a collection of books, maps, and minatures with which to play . . .

. . . just in time to have WotC step up and announce a BRAND NEW system - 4th ED.

So, just chunk all your 3.5 books (as well as your stat cards for the mini&#039;s since they won&#039;t work with the new system) and go out and buy all NEW stuff (so that WotC can get wealthier) . . . 

I don&#039;t think so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I began playing back in &#8216;77 with 1st ED.  Continued through High School and College with 2nd ED and AD&amp;D.  Then moved away, got married, had kids, and nearly forgot all about D&amp;D.<br />
We got back into it about 4 years ago when we started having &#8220;reunions&#8221; with our old gaming group.  We also started a group here at home and decided to jump into 3.5.  After a short learning period, we decided that we loved the changes as they seemed to make the game simpler and gave more room for the roleplaying aspect.  We spent a year and a fair amount of money putting together a collection of books, maps, and minatures with which to play . . .</p>
<p>. . . just in time to have WotC step up and announce a BRAND NEW system &#8211; 4th ED.</p>
<p>So, just chunk all your 3.5 books (as well as your stat cards for the mini&#8217;s since they won&#8217;t work with the new system) and go out and buy all NEW stuff (so that WotC can get wealthier) . . . </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think so.</p>
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		<title>By: Aurore</title>
		<link>http://www.d20source.com/2009/05/players-guide-to-dd-4th-edition-for-3e-players/comment-page-1#comment-83016</link>
		<dc:creator>Aurore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 11:44:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d20source.com/?p=935#comment-83016</guid>
		<description>4th edition is a tactical board wargame with no flavour. The classes are all the same, just a selection of powers that move you or others around a grid. All the fun and excitement and the extreme customisation of 3.5 is gone.

They also tried to take us back to the 1st ed style dungeon crawls by vandlaising faerun and creating their points of light setting. Bleh.

Sorry the whole edition is insipid and flavourless, and is not D&amp;D.

We are now playing Pathfinder from Paizo, which IS D&amp;D, even if it cant use the name, in addition to adding things from Monte Cook&#039;s arcana evolved and iron heroes, both of which are also recognisably D&amp;D. 4th ed is tabletop WoW or something.

Looking at Play by Post forums, 3.5 dominates over 4th even now by a factor of 5:1. I sincerely hope wizards will fail and the license go to a more useful company. Or maybe just scrap 4th and bring out 5th in a more traditional way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>4th edition is a tactical board wargame with no flavour. The classes are all the same, just a selection of powers that move you or others around a grid. All the fun and excitement and the extreme customisation of 3.5 is gone.</p>
<p>They also tried to take us back to the 1st ed style dungeon crawls by vandlaising faerun and creating their points of light setting. Bleh.</p>
<p>Sorry the whole edition is insipid and flavourless, and is not D&amp;D.</p>
<p>We are now playing Pathfinder from Paizo, which IS D&amp;D, even if it cant use the name, in addition to adding things from Monte Cook&#8217;s arcana evolved and iron heroes, both of which are also recognisably D&amp;D. 4th ed is tabletop WoW or something.</p>
<p>Looking at Play by Post forums, 3.5 dominates over 4th even now by a factor of 5:1. I sincerely hope wizards will fail and the license go to a more useful company. Or maybe just scrap 4th and bring out 5th in a more traditional way.</p>
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