There are 76 different possible maximum HP values for boars in WoW, not counting any boars that lack “Helboar” or “Boar” in their names. 76. If I take a two-digit number, what do you think the odds are that it’ll match up between one of 76 different, randomly picked numbers?

Doing a quick scan on the word “wolf”, and filtering out named NPCs, there seems to be around twice as many wolves in WoW a there are boars. Tell me, what are the odds that if you pick a two-digit number, it’ll match up to at least one out of 100 randomly chosen two-digit numbers?

The WoW and the D&D black dragon you’re comparing aren’t even remotely similar. One of them is an acid-spitting creature that lives in swamps, breathes underwater, and is relatively large. The other is a housecat sized fire-breathing creature found in mountainous areas. The only thing they share in common are the scales.

In short: your arguments are silly and statistically unsound.

D&D3E: Gargoyle, 37HP (MM 3.5)
WoW: Putrid Gargoyle, 3600.74666667 HP

D&D3E: Ogre, 29HP (MM3.5)
WoW: Firegut Ogre, 2990.68181818 HP

D&D3E: Flesh golem, 79HP (MM3.5)
WoW: Flesh golem, 8003 HP

I have nothing against World of Warcraft, the fact that so many people play it is proof that it is great. And the same could be said about 4th edition. But even though it doesn’t directly prove my point, I’d like to show you some similar statistics, between WOW and 4th edition. You may find them enjoyable. I found and compared these in just a few minutes.

(note: I do not own a copy of WOW and so I do not have all the stats necessary to make a direct comparison.)

Snow Tracker Wolf (in WOW)

Level 6: 121.176470588 HP

In 4th edition: Worg (p.265 MM) HP: 120

Their Hit Points are almost exactly the same. :P

Ice Claw Bear (in WOW)

Level 7: 172 HP

In 4th edition: Cave Bear (p.29 MM) HP: 170

Again, very similar.

Battleboar (in WOW)

Level 4: 89.2 HP

In 4th edition: Dire Boar (p.35 MM) HP: 85

I see a pattern. :D

Black Dragon Whelp (in WOW)

Level 17: 299.121212121 HP

In 4th edition: Young Black Dragon (p.75 MM) HP: 224

Primitive Owlbeast (in WOW)

Level 45: 2021.70454545 HP

In 4th edition: Owlbear (p.212 MM) HP: 212

Just add an extra zero to the Owlbears’s Hit points and they are almost the same.

Again, this does not prove my point (exactly). But with all the similarities from the HP alone I am very suspicious. Also, I looked on the Internet for about 5 minutes to find these statistics, so they may be slightly inaccurate.

DragonChild: I apologize if my previous message upset you. I did not intend to hurt anyones feelings, merely to just express how similar the two systems are. I will admit that most comparisions were not exact, (I looked for just about 5 minutes)
…
And as for the bet: I will let you keep the money. I don’t want it. :P

Now, I have a question, and I would like to know if this is possible:

Could Blizzard and Wizards of The Coast be working together?

If not, could Blizzard sue WOTC if they deemed the system too similar?

Any ideas?

Nevertheless, I’m interested in investigating your claims: Do you remember which monster it was and which MMORPG?

Then… 4th edition came out…

Now, back when 3.5 edition came out, I still played ‘Old School,’ not allowing Prestige classes and keeping most of the things the same between 2nd and 3rd edition.

But let me tell you: Gary Gygax would NEVER have wanted you to play this game. 4th edition is not his game. It was not his vision of Role-playing at all. And despite all the fans of 4th edition, Wizards of The Coast really screwed up with this one.

And to prove my point about how badly 4th edition sucked, I told my friend to pull out the new monster manual. He did so, and my friend also played a very popular MMORPG (Multi-Massive Online Role-Playing Game). I noticed that one of the creatures in this MMORPG was very similar to another creature in 4th edition, I told him to pull out the stats for that monster.
I pointed to the new Monster Manual and pointed at some of the stats on that creature. I told him:

“I want you to add an extra zero or two to those, and compare them to the other creatures’.”

He did just that, and it took him a few minutes to realize it, but he figured it out… they were exactly the same.

I had proven that 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons was nothing more than World Of Warcraft on paper.

… My friend immediately threw the Monster manual across the room and yelled.

I despise 4th edition with a great passion. I do enjoy some of the ideas from this new edition, but not only is it too simplified, it is also not even close to the older editions. This was WOTCs way of producing an online game with little effort and I swear, if Gary Gygax was still alive, he would be ashamed.

4th edition is NOT Dungeons & Dragons. It’s World Of Warcraft on paper.

Those of you who like 4th (or 3rd or 3.5 for that matter) Edition, have to realize they might be playing a Fantasy RPG with some elements of D&D/AD&D – but they AREN’T Playing D&D/AD&D – its a derivite.

D&D/AD&D was written/created by Dave Arneson & Gary Gygax. Anything else (even products that might hold the license) created/produced not under the direct control of those two very missed individuals is NOT D&D/AD&D.

Its like reading a Discworld story not written by Terry Pratchett, it might be ABOUT Discworld – possibly even legally and professionally produced. But its NOT from the mind of Terry Pratchett, so it can never be truly Discworld.

Modern D&D is a Miniatures Game with Roleplaying elements built in. You can put as many rules and systems in place as you want, I’ve bought a LOT of 4e stuff, and was on the verge of starting up DM’ing the new Edition when something struck me – the constant churning over balance meant that (pretty much) all the character types were becoming the same. Sure the descriptive text is pretty, but ALL the mechanics of Feats/Spells and the like meant everything pretty much worked the same way – wheres the fun in that.

Back in the ‘Old Days’ balance came from the Dungeon Master. If something was too powerful, he countered it with something in the Scenario or something ‘unexpected’ in the Game World. If a Character was rapidly becoming dominant within a group, generally it was because of his natural strength of personality – not because of the rules of a game, dice rolls, or character he chose to play (think “Colin” Lol, every group has a Colin – he was always the bully of the group).

As Don Turnbul (he used to be head of TSR UK) once said to me at a Con (all those years ago again Lol), “don’t rely on the rules too much – always try to make some of it up as you go along; both you and your players will have more fun that way”.

The current RPG market is made up of sterile recycled overly complicated rulesets.

D&D/AD&D had it right, unfortunately MOST people either can’t see it or are too stubborn to admit it.

Keep Rollin – Drew

My best friend decided to make a rogue and put his high stats in intelligence and charisma. His lowest stat was in his Dexterity. This is really all you have to do to make a crappy character in 4th edition. Just don’t put your stats where they say and now your screwed. There are no individuals in 4th edition, a rogue will always have the same stats and if he doesn’t he’s going to die.

The power system seems to work pretty well for spell casters. I’ve always hated the vancian magic system. But every player that plays a martial character winds up asking “why can’t I use this attack again?” Applying the concept of so many uses per combat or per day just doesn’t make any sense when it comes to hitting something with your sword. It makes for a balanced game system sure, but that doesn’t make it make sense.

Healing surges have effectively recreated the situation that they tried to eliminate by introducing at will powers and encounter powers. They should have just said “in between encounters you heal to full hit points”. That’s what people wind up doing with healing surges, so why pussy foot around? Healing surges just add another thing to track until you need to take an extended rest. My players have had as little as two encounters between extended rests because they needed to get back their healing surges. It’s the same 15 minute day that existed in 3rd edition just with a different game mechanic causing it.

That said I do like to play 4e. The combat is fairly quick, and that’s a plus. The idea of daily, encounter, and at will powers is a great one, especially for magic users.

I do miss the ability to research spells and build a library of them to use and adapt with. Everyone feels like a sorcerer. The diversity in how different classes actually worked has changed significantly now that everyone has big, medium, and small abilities paced out the same way each.

I think 4e would have gone over better as a separate version of D&D rather than a replacement. Something like “D&D Tactics” It’s a good game, but not a better game than 3e. What we have is a system that plays smoother, but feels shallower. The people I find disliking 4e the most are either hard core min/maxers and dungeon crawlers, or hard core role players who have their long term campaign ruined because there was no conversion for a Gnome Bard. Middle of the road folks and new players tend to like it a lot more than 3e.

So for me personally, I won’t be buying the books. I’ll certainly play 4e, but I’ll continue to run 3e…. And Torg. :P

4th does a good job of fixing some aspects of 3e that were little more than brain-farts of the developers. Vancian magic justly got the axe. The 15 minute day (because after one encounter, you may have blown your higher level spells, and need to rest for another day to regain them–hence the 15 min day) was mostly eliminated. Class balance was given more attention. Periodic errata would correct problems rather than letting them fester. Racial differences became important again. Finally, epic support was hard-wired into the core product.

As a whole, they did a very good job of homing in on 3e’s problems. However, they also homed in on things which were fine, and some of their cures were worse than the disease. Non-combat magic was removed and put into the highly impractical rituals. Healing surges just seem so video-game. (Yeah, I got clubbed with a tree by a giant, but the fight is over now, so I am ok!) The lore was gutted. The Realms have been changed so drastically that it wouldn’t be much of an overstatement to say that they are gone and replaced with some new Realms-based thing. The great wheel (which I wished they would flesh out in greater detail) is gone. One nit point that irked me more than it should of is that the PHB declares that at 30th level, you decide that you aren’t interested in adventuring anymore and declares it game over. I thought that was my decision to make?

For me, the key problem is that everyone is basically a different type a sorceror now, and classes are effectively shoe-horned into nit roles. Although I agree that the martial classes needed a bit of spice, I don’t think it was handled the right way. In 3e, you could customize and build something that suits your play style. (However, there was so many garbage PrCs, feats and skills that it was really easy to screw up and make a useless character). But is it an improvement to have a mostly pre-packed character rammed down your throat?

I loved 3e, but I would have been willing to trade it for a better game. 4e is a good game, but IMHO, it is not better. For those who disagree, congrats and enjoy. For me, my group had been having trouble holding on because of real-world obligations. Since we wrapped up our 3e campaign to try 4th, and since we didn’t love it, it looks like this is the end of our 14 years of gaming. Well, I guess we had to grow up sometime.