Comments on: Vow of Poverty, Revisited http://www.d20source.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited A must-read Dungeons & Dragons blog for dungeon masters, D&D players and game designers. Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:34:31 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Lorelei http://www.d20source.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited/comment-page-1#comment-89395 Lorelei Sun, 25 Apr 2010 03:52:57 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited#comment-89395 I'm currently running a character using many things from the 3.5 world, much of which is from the book of exalted deeds. I am currently a cleric 1 / favored soul 1 / monk 4, although I'm a 9 HD character. I have attached the Saint and Half-Celestial templates to this character. The first feats i took were the Sacred vow, Vow of Nonviolence, and Vow of Peace. The vow of poverty has come in very handy in developing my character as a completely defensive character. The monk and saintly abilities have provided nice additions to my AC as well. Intuitive attack was an excellent choice for my attack rolls, which are all nonlethal. Holy Subdual allows bonus holy damage to be nonlethal as well, all of which is allowed by the vow of peace. The feat Sacred Healing from the Complete Divine book has become a much more effective method of healing the party. Currently, my AC is 51, and my saving throws are fort 17, ref 11, will 21. One i am able to take class levels again, I will take two levels of Paladin, whe the divine grace ability will provide a boost to my save of my cha modifier of 6. Once those two levels have been completed, I will become ever after an Apostle of Peace. If you are able to research the rules, you can find amazing things to do with your character. I’m currently running a character using many things from the 3.5 world, much of which is from the book of exalted deeds.
I am currently a cleric 1 / favored soul 1 / monk 4, although I’m a 9 HD character. I have attached the Saint and Half-Celestial templates to this character. The first feats i took were the Sacred vow, Vow of Nonviolence, and Vow of Peace. The vow of poverty has come in very handy in developing my character as a completely defensive character. The monk and saintly abilities have provided nice additions to my AC as well. Intuitive attack was an excellent choice for my attack rolls, which are all nonlethal. Holy Subdual allows bonus holy damage to be nonlethal as well, all of which is allowed by the vow of peace. The feat Sacred Healing from the Complete Divine book has become a much more effective method of healing the party. Currently, my AC is 51, and my saving throws are fort 17, ref 11, will 21. One i am able to take class levels again, I will take two levels of Paladin, whe the divine grace ability will provide a boost to my save of my cha modifier of 6. Once those two levels have been completed, I will become ever after an Apostle of Peace. If you are able to research the rules, you can find amazing things to do with your character.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.d20source.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited/comment-page-1#comment-87645 Anonymous Sun, 04 Apr 2010 22:35:14 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited#comment-87645 Karaskhan, you fail at reading. The VOP character still gets his share of the gold- he's required to donate it to charity. Also, VOP is a sucky feat, because most melee classes are shooting themselves in the foot for lack of a way to fly, and most spellcasting classes should be spending moolah on Force Multipliers like Metamagic Rods, not mostly useless boost to AC... at higher levels AC is worthless. The only class that VOP actually is a net benefit for is the Druid, and there are only a few more classes that are even halfway playable with VOP: Incarnates, Totemists, Binders, and maaaaaaaaaaaaybe Psions in a low power game Karaskhan, you fail at reading. The VOP character still gets his share of the gold- he’s required to donate it to charity.

Also, VOP is a sucky feat, because most melee classes are shooting themselves in the foot for lack of a way to fly, and most spellcasting classes should be spending moolah on Force Multipliers like Metamagic Rods, not mostly useless boost to AC… at higher levels AC is worthless.

The only class that VOP actually is a net benefit for is the Druid, and there are only a few more classes that are even halfway playable with VOP: Incarnates, Totemists, Binders, and maaaaaaaaaaaaybe Psions in a low power game

]]> By: Lamorake http://www.d20source.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited/comment-page-1#comment-81204 Lamorake Tue, 12 Jan 2010 04:21:08 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited#comment-81204 VoP monk vs Monk with Monk's Belt? Well, you can take a few feats to make up for not having the Monk's Belt and the VoP covers more than the rest. I'd recommend these two feats at least: Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack. Taking those will boost damage significantly, and the VoP AC bonuses and Stat bumps are more than enough... not to mention Freedom of Movement and damage reduction. VoP monk vs Monk with Monk’s Belt? Well, you can take a few feats to make up for not having the Monk’s Belt and the VoP covers more than the rest. I’d recommend these two feats at least: Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack. Taking those will boost damage significantly, and the VoP AC bonuses and Stat bumps are more than enough… not to mention Freedom of Movement and damage reduction.

]]> By: Baelzar http://www.d20source.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited/comment-page-1#comment-80740 Baelzar Tue, 05 Jan 2010 07:39:42 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited#comment-80740 So I'm playing a character in a one-shot adventure next month. 3-4 days playing. We will be 15th level and have only 150k for magic items (50k short of the DMG table) and can use all 3.5 books published by WotC. You like VoP Monk over regular Monk? How does VoP make up for the Monk's Belt level adjustment? Any other suggestions for a character in this scenario? So I’m playing a character in a one-shot adventure next month. 3-4 days playing.

We will be 15th level and have only 150k for magic items (50k short of the DMG table) and can use all 3.5 books published by WotC.

You like VoP Monk over regular Monk? How does VoP make up for the Monk’s Belt level adjustment?

Any other suggestions for a character in this scenario?

]]> By: Kevin http://www.d20source.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited/comment-page-1#comment-79259 Kevin Sun, 13 Dec 2009 10:12:31 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited#comment-79259 I do not know what VoP you are looking at but it states in Exalted Deeds "To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes(usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties." So that I think states very clearly that you can use simple weapons and NO Armor. With that said I am very excited about VoP and most of the "problems" that people have with it sound like they stem from game balance issues with the Monk and Druid. I think people are overlooking the goal of the Vow which is to teach the character the path of true aestheticism and the benefits that come with that. The reason I like VoP so much is that it really brings out the Role Playing which is something that a lot of people seem to forget. I think the key to being a DM with a VoP character in the party is to make sure that they do stay in character. That they act exalted b/c that is main thing that must be done on this path. So watch the character closely and do not let them stray too far from it. Okay I have said enough on this for now... I do not know what VoP you are looking at but it states in Exalted Deeds
“To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking
stick. You may wear simple clothes(usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties.”

So that I think states very clearly that you can use simple weapons and NO Armor.

With that said I am very excited about VoP and most of the “problems” that people have with it sound like they stem from game balance issues with the Monk and Druid. I think people are overlooking the goal of the Vow which is to teach the character the path of true aestheticism and the benefits that come with that. The reason I like VoP so much is that it really brings out the Role Playing which is something that a lot of people seem to forget.

I think the key to being a DM with a VoP character in the party is to make sure that they do stay in character. That they act exalted b/c that is main thing that must be done on this path. So watch the character closely and do not let them stray too far from it.

Okay I have said enough on this for now…

]]> By: Robert turner http://www.d20source.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited/comment-page-1#comment-77431 Robert turner Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:05:35 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited#comment-77431 You guys should know VOP only gets rid of magical items and expensive spell components it does not prohibit you from acquiring or using any normal arms and armor. You guys should know VOP only gets rid of magical items and expensive spell components it does not prohibit you from acquiring or using any normal arms and armor.

]]> By: Robert http://www.d20source.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited/comment-page-1#comment-73385 Robert Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:33:46 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited#comment-73385 It is pretty clear that the VoP is broken for monks and druids. The argument that VoP gives apropriat bonuses for the gear that character has given up falls apart when you use it for characters that can not use heavy armor. At level 18 VoP gives you a +10 Armor bonus wich is fair and resonable if you are talking a paladin or a cleric. That would only represent a 25k gold item. When you apply that to a monk who can not wear armor that is bracers of AC 10 which is a 100k item. It is crazy when you look at the level 1 case. Ok a paladin gets the equivalent of his 50g chain shirt. The only way a monk will get a +4 armor bonus is with +4 bracers which is a 16k item. How many level 1 characters start with 16k in gear? In my game if you are playing a class that does not have proficiancy in heavy armor you start the armor bonus at +1 AC. It is still a 1,000 gp item at level 1 but then I also don't allow the feat to be taken by level 1 characters. It is pretty clear that the VoP is broken for monks and druids.

The argument that VoP gives apropriat bonuses for the gear that character has given up falls apart when you use it for characters that can not use heavy armor.

At level 18 VoP gives you a +10 Armor bonus wich is fair and resonable if you are talking a paladin or a cleric. That would only represent a 25k gold item. When you apply that to a monk who can not wear armor that is bracers of AC 10 which is a 100k item.

It is crazy when you look at the level 1 case. Ok a paladin gets the equivalent of his 50g chain shirt. The only way a monk will get a +4 armor bonus is with +4 bracers which is a 16k item.

How many level 1 characters start with 16k in gear?

In my game if you are playing a class that does not have proficiancy in heavy armor you start the armor bonus at +1 AC. It is still a 1,000 gp item at level 1 but then I also don’t allow the feat to be taken by level 1 characters.

]]> By: Kenshin http://www.d20source.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited/comment-page-1#comment-72512 Kenshin Sat, 01 Aug 2009 01:55:53 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited#comment-72512 My assimar monk takes the Vow of Poverty at 6th level and now he is at 16th level. With intuitive attack feat and his high Wisdom score, he has absolutely high AC (even good at touch AC -- is the most difficult defense that a PC can rise), high Saves, poison immunity, SR, improved evasion, high jumb & tumble skills. I would say he is the most invulnerable character among the party. However, the enjoyment from this character is decreasing. From my opinion, the consideration before a character to take the Vow of Poverty is not only its power. As a D&D player, I enjoy the uncertainty and exciting treasure rewards from adventures. The character's path of improvement is uncertain, like life. However, I can now imagine what will my monk looks like when he is at 20th. The most critical draw back from this feat should be, it reduces the part of the fun of this game. My assimar monk takes the Vow of Poverty at 6th level and now he is at 16th level. With intuitive attack feat and his high Wisdom score, he has absolutely high AC (even good at touch AC — is the most difficult defense that a PC can rise), high Saves, poison immunity, SR, improved evasion, high jumb & tumble skills. I would say he is the most invulnerable character among the party. However, the enjoyment from this character is decreasing.

From my opinion, the consideration before a character to take the Vow of Poverty is not only its power. As a D&D player, I enjoy the uncertainty and exciting treasure rewards from adventures. The character’s path of improvement is uncertain, like life. However, I can now imagine what will my monk looks like when he is at 20th.

The most critical draw back from this feat should be, it reduces the part of the fun of this game.

]]> By: Zyerhod http://www.d20source.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited/comment-page-1#comment-69715 Zyerhod Mon, 08 Jun 2009 03:24:15 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited#comment-69715 saving throw, even.. ack with the typos saving throw, even..

ack with the typos

]]> By: Zyerhod http://www.d20source.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited/comment-page-1#comment-69714 Zyerhod Mon, 08 Jun 2009 03:23:36 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/12/vow-of-poverty-revisited#comment-69714 I'm not sure if I'm just used to uber powergamer muchkin twink gamers or if maybe monk is one of the more misunderstood classes, but I continuously see people saying that VoP Monk is not that powerful a combo.... WRONG! With the combination of ability to completely evade most damaging spells/effects (and only take half if you fail the saving through... and did I mention that monks get good bonuses to saves?), a decent attack bonus with level, scaling damage for unarmed attacks, and the ability to take something like intuitive attack that adds wisdom to your attack instead of strength, thus maxing dex & wis (as you should for a monk anyway) for sick AC and solid attack & damage. No, I submit that a VoP Monk is a very solid character to play and would put one up against anything else... except maybe a twinked Kalashtar kineticist with Quori Mindhunter prestige class.... I’m not sure if I’m just used to uber powergamer muchkin twink gamers or if maybe monk is one of the more misunderstood classes, but I continuously see people saying that VoP Monk is not that powerful a combo….

WRONG!

With the combination of ability to completely evade most damaging spells/effects (and only take half if you fail the saving through… and did I mention that monks get good bonuses to saves?), a decent attack bonus with level, scaling damage for unarmed attacks, and the ability to take something like intuitive attack that adds wisdom to your attack instead of strength, thus maxing dex & wis (as you should for a monk anyway) for sick AC and solid attack & damage.

No, I submit that a VoP Monk is a very solid character to play and would put one up against anything else… except maybe a twinked Kalashtar kineticist with Quori Mindhunter prestige class….

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