Comments on: What’s the Deal With Polymorph? http://www.d20source.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph A blog for all fans of Dungeons & Dragons. Sun, 05 Feb 2012 20:00:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Quicksilver http://www.d20source.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph/comment-page-1#comment-73591 Quicksilver Mon, 24 Aug 2009 08:03:28 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph#comment-73591 Correction there, you only get Ex "Attacks" and not abilities. The spell is too darn confusing, but i use it as a player. Its also a suicide spell later on in levels. If you shift into something at 15th level to "tank" an enemy, you Are going to lose enough hitpoints to eventually cause the Con shift back to normal form kill you outright. This'll happen while your in a shape that doesn't speak languages too :). Its always a risk when used, its heavily restricted in a balanced way (Ex Attacks only, not abilities), it does just so happen to take up a spell slot of 4th level i believe (same as stoneskin, scry, greater invis, reincarnate, dismissal, flame strike, death ward and phantasmal killer), and its a magical spell. Correction there, you only get Ex “Attacks” and not abilities. The spell is too darn confusing, but i use it as a player. Its also a suicide spell later on in levels. If you shift into something at 15th level to “tank” an enemy, you Are going to lose enough hitpoints to eventually cause the Con shift back to normal form kill you outright. This’ll happen while your in a shape that doesn’t speak languages too :). Its always a risk when used, its heavily restricted in a balanced way (Ex Attacks only, not abilities), it does just so happen to take up a spell slot of 4th level i believe (same as stoneskin, scry, greater invis, reincarnate, dismissal, flame strike, death ward and phantasmal killer), and its a magical spell.

]]> By: Dan http://www.d20source.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph/comment-page-1#comment-32775 Dan Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:18:21 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph#comment-32775 You cannot polymorph into a creature with a template, or a creature who's HD is above yours (15 max). You gain no scent/ extraordinary abilities, low light vision, etc. It's not that good. You cannot polymorph into a creature with a template, or a creature who’s HD is above yours (15 max). You gain no scent/ extraordinary abilities, low light vision, etc. It’s not that good.

]]> By: Jonathan Drain http://www.d20source.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph/comment-page-1#comment-4112 Jonathan Drain Fri, 20 Apr 2007 06:36:46 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph#comment-4112 Matt: It allows mundane and Ex, but not Sp or Su. However, some players have construed this to allow spells, since spellcasting is neither Sp nor Su. (It is this blogger's opinion that any DM who lets his players do this is an idiot.) Matt: It allows mundane and Ex, but not Sp or Su. However, some players have construed this to allow spells, since spellcasting is neither Sp nor Su. (It is this blogger’s opinion that any DM who lets his players do this is an idiot.)

]]> By: Matt http://www.d20source.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph/comment-page-1#comment-4110 Matt Fri, 20 Apr 2007 01:43:01 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph#comment-4110 Polymorph does not allow exp/sp/su abilities. Or am I correct. Polymorph does not allow exp/sp/su abilities. Or am I correct.

]]> By: Jonathan Drain http://www.d20source.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph/comment-page-1#comment-1905 Jonathan Drain Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:28:38 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph#comment-1905 As a DM I'm comfortable allowing my players <cite>polymorph</cite> in the knowledge that I can ad-hoc cap it. Of course, an overall cap would probably be the best way to handle it. I see no problem in saying "this spell can turn you into an ogre, but since it's a limited spell you're not as strong as a real ogre". As a DM I’m comfortable allowing my players polymorph in the knowledge that I can ad-hoc cap it.

Of course, an overall cap would probably be the best way to handle it. I see no problem in saying “this spell can turn you into an ogre, but since it’s a limited spell you’re not as strong as a real ogre”.

]]> By: Marco Al http://www.d20source.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph/comment-page-1#comment-1899 Marco Al Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:58:50 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph#comment-1899 What have we known to date though in 3e? AFAICS the iconic 3e use of polymorph is turning into a roper and owning everything not immune to strength damage. I've personally always pretended the spell didn't exist at all because of such shenanigans. You seem to want to retain the complete range of flexibility of polymorph as far as buffing is concerned ... and at the same time make it balanced. That might work as long as you are hand waving, but D&D isn't freeform. Eventually you have to put numbers to the idea, and it will all come tumbling down. You have to severely restrict what the spell can give you to make it balanced, far more aggressively than Rich did. Getting your caster level to all your physical ability scores, your natural armor and fast healing on top of a dozen natural attacks and pounce is not balanced (there is no creature which unites all these, but there could be and the spell shouldn't break down just because it exists). If I wanted to make things simple I'd simply say limit scores to your own +4, 1 natural weapon attack, movement modes and no ex/sp/su abilities at all. If you want to allow more than that you are going to need some kind of point system (like the menu based system linked above, but limited to what the creature already has). You can't get away from making it overly mechanical if you want to retain all the versatility ... What have we known to date though in 3e? AFAICS the iconic 3e use of polymorph is turning into a roper and owning everything not immune to strength damage. I’ve personally always pretended the spell didn’t exist at all because of such shenanigans.

You seem to want to retain the complete range of flexibility of polymorph as far as buffing is concerned … and at the same time make it balanced. That might work as long as you are hand waving, but D&D isn’t freeform. Eventually you have to put numbers to the idea, and it will all come tumbling down.

You have to severely restrict what the spell can give you to make it balanced, far more aggressively than Rich did. Getting your caster level to all your physical ability scores, your natural armor and fast healing on top of a dozen natural attacks and pounce is not balanced (there is no creature which unites all these, but there could be and the spell shouldn’t break down just because it exists).

If I wanted to make things simple I’d simply say limit scores to your own +4, 1 natural weapon attack, movement modes and no ex/sp/su abilities at all. If you want to allow more than that you are going to need some kind of point system (like the menu based system linked above, but limited to what the creature already has). You can’t get away from making it overly mechanical if you want to retain all the versatility …

]]> By: Jonathan Drain http://www.d20source.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph/comment-page-1#comment-1891 Jonathan Drain Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:00:12 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph#comment-1891 If you can alter your form purely as a pick-and-choose buff spell, then it's not the same spell as one which lets you assume forms of real monsters. It's a valid spell, but it's not what we've known to date as <cite>polymorph</cite>. My personal preference is to state that <cite>polymorph</cite> is an imperfect spell, and thus while it lets you assume any of the forms it allows, it doesn't grant you every possible ability; thus for example regeneration might be commuted to fast healing or revoked entirely. If you can alter your form purely as a pick-and-choose buff spell, then it’s not the same spell as one which lets you assume forms of real monsters. It’s a valid spell, but it’s not what we’ve known to date as polymorph.

My personal preference is to state that polymorph is an imperfect spell, and thus while it lets you assume any of the forms it allows, it doesn’t grant you every possible ability; thus for example regeneration might be commuted to fast healing or revoked entirely.

]]> By: Marco Al http://www.d20source.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph/comment-page-1#comment-1887 Marco Al Sat, 17 Feb 2007 07:21:43 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph#comment-1887 Oops ... I'd meant for that url to be under the text "A menu based approach". Madmax.Jr, just limiting the spells to shapes you are familiar with does not balance the spell ... unless as a DM you want to limit yourself to only using creatures which are balanced for polymorph, which in effect means throwing away part of your monster manual(s). Creating a list of prohibited creatures on top of familiarity is a necessity. Oops … I’d meant for that url to be under the text “A menu based approach”.

Madmax.Jr, just limiting the spells to shapes you are familiar with does not balance the spell … unless as a DM you want to limit yourself to only using creatures which are balanced for polymorph, which in effect means throwing away part of your monster manual(s). Creating a list of prohibited creatures on top of familiarity is a necessity.

]]> By: Marco Al http://www.d20source.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph/comment-page-1#comment-1886 Marco Al Sat, 17 Feb 2007 07:15:35 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph#comment-1886 The FAQ entry about polymorph allowing templates was clearly in error, and retracted, as are you ;) Alter self prohibits taking the form of a templated creature and that prohibition holds for polymorph. The spell as written is broken, but not that broken. Your suggestion is basically "just make a list of prohibited creatures on the fly as you go". It works alright, it's not terribly elegant though. <a href="http://karton.student.utwente.nl/houserules/Polymorph.html" title="A menu based approach" rel="nofollow">A menu based approach</a> which allows you to take any shape of body and just tack on abilities might be very mechanical, but not versatile or flexible? You get more options, not less. Instead of saying you become a bugbear for the day you can say you are becoming a bugbear who can burrow and has a bite attack. Sure it's overly mechanical and damages suspense of disbelief in being so, but this is D&D ... the whole game is overly mechanical. Arbitrary (from an in game perspective) limits on what you can turn into damages verisimilitude, so I'd say roleplaying wise it's a wash. The FAQ entry about polymorph allowing templates was clearly in error, and retracted, as are you ;) Alter self prohibits taking the form of a templated creature and that prohibition holds for polymorph. The spell as written is broken, but not that broken.

Your suggestion is basically “just make a list of prohibited creatures on the fly as you go”. It works alright, it’s not terribly elegant though.

A menu based approach which allows you to take any shape of body and just tack on abilities might be very mechanical, but not versatile or flexible? You get more options, not less. Instead of saying you become a bugbear for the day you can say you are becoming a bugbear who can burrow and has a bite attack.

Sure it’s overly mechanical and damages suspense of disbelief in being so, but this is D&D … the whole game is overly mechanical. Arbitrary (from an in game perspective) limits on what you can turn into damages verisimilitude, so I’d say roleplaying wise it’s a wash.

]]> By: MadMaxJr http://www.d20source.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph/comment-page-1#comment-1490 MadMaxJr Sun, 21 Jan 2007 05:30:36 +0000 http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/01/whats-the-deal-with-polymorph#comment-1490 This spell has caused issues in D&D since I picked up in 2nd Ed. Personally I believe in controlling it as you suggest. You can only polymorph into things you know. This spell has caused issues in D&D since I picked up in 2nd Ed. Personally I believe in controlling it as you suggest. You can only polymorph into things you know.

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